Welcome to Media Hotshots, a series of interviews with some of the most celebrated Editors in lifestyle, fashion, beauty and interiors media today. All of the Editors interviewed in this series subscribe to PRShots and PressArea and the majority of those have said that heavily rely on its service in order to make their jobs easier, therefore the opportunity for you and your brands to gain more coverage into their pages is made all the more possible and this series of interviews is aimed at not only celebrating their lives, but to help provide you with some golden nuggets that if used, could make you a complete hero
(00:44) Nick: So welcome to this episode in which we’re interviewing two brilliant Editors together at the same time, and that’s Julie Player - Fashion and Covers Editor at Bauer Media and Paula Moore - Fashion Director at Future Publishing
During this episode we’ll be discussing: -
So let’s go straight to the interview
(01:36) Nick: So I want to welcome everybody to Media Hotshots actually, which I'll give some credit to Julie because actually Julie…
Julie: I came up with that!
Nick: Which is brilliant! So it's interesting because I actually put it out to a few people just to see whether I was on the right track and then actually Julie's idea was brilliant. So actually the name Media Hotshots all came from Julie, so…
Paula: Well done Julie
(02:00) Nick: So let's introduce them with no further ado, Julie Player Fashion and Covers Editor at Bauer Media for Take a Break and That's Life magazines. Julie is one of the most respected Fashion Editors. Sorry I'm reading this as well…
Paula: That Julie wrote!
Nick: No, I think I did. I think. I don't know, did I? I can't remember.
Julie: Nothing like blowing my own trumpet
Nick: She’s one of the most respected Fashion Editors in the business with over 30 years of experience working for mass-market consumer magazines. Her previous roles have included Fashion Editor at Bella and Woman’s Weekly and she has been the Fashion & Covers Editor at Take a Break and that’s life! for the last 21 years.
(02:44) And Secondly we have Paula Moore - Fashion Director at Future Publishing, Woman & Home, Woman, Woman’s Own, Woman’s Weekly and Chat and having worked in the fashion industry for almost 30 years, Paula was appointed Deputy Fashion Editor at Time Inc 10 years ago and worked her way to Fashion Editor, Fashion Director and for the last three years Group Fashion Director. From working on just Woman Magazine to now overseeing the fashion pages for six of the UK's biggest women's titles (Woman, Woman and Home, Woman's Own, Woman's Weekly, Chat and Feel Good You) now owned by Future Publishing, Paula has seen the industry change immensely but still has the same passion and enthusiasm as she had from the beginning. Paula and her team work across multiple channels - print, online and social media, meeting tight deadlines while continuing to produce fashion pages that women can relate to.
Both these ladies cover the full breadth of women’s magazine titles in the UK, and it’s a privilege to have them together. This is just an absolute honour so, welcome to the both of you.
Julie and Paula: Thank you very much, thanks for having us
Nick: So obviously you guys have so much experience, you've obviously seen a lot of changes over those times, so it would be interesting to hear from you how you went really from school first of all, to becoming Editors?
Paula: That's a long time ago, I don’t think my memory’s that good!
(04:10) Julie: Exactly, that’s a long time ago. Well, I yeah, I went a really traditional route, well it was tradition at the time. Straight from school I went to the London College of Fashion and I did a two year HND course in fashion journalism, and at the time it was the only course in the country. Nobody else was offering a course in journalism specializing in fashion, so it was a real priviledge to get on the course. I think there were 24 people in the country studying it, so it was a lovely to be in central London, Oxford Street at that young time. And then straight from there I pretty much went to six months working in the industry with a brand and then I got a job in the cupboard at Bella, and that's how you started in those days, you started in the cupboard.
Nick: Oh wow!
Julie: We both started in the cupboard didn’t we!?
(04:53) Paula: Yep, worked our way out!
Julie: Now you pretty much worked in the cupboard for about a year, so you weren't allowed out of the cupboard for about a year. And being in the cupboard would just mean that you did all the returns basically, and that's all we did pretty much really make tea coffee and do the returns.
Nick: Oh wow!
(05:09) Julie: And then slowly you would…, but those are back in the days when they were about seven or eight in a fashion department, so you knew that you knew that if you worked your year… and I suppose today that's what the intern would do, but we used to get paid a little bit of money for doing it back in those days. Yeah, and just work your way up via the rungs of the ladder up to Fashion Editor. So that's how I ended up doing what I do now.
Nick: Oh wow! And how about you Paula?
(05:35) Paula: Similar, but I wanted to go to London College of fashion, but I thought I'd defer for a year and go traveling with all my friends and see the world. Then realized that my parents weren't going to pay for me to do that. So off my friends when and I didn't have a chance to go to the college so I then, just wrote to all the magazines for work experience and my first job was with Best magazine and I was in the cupboard. So I was there for about 3 weeks and then they actually recommended me for a full time position and I went to DC Thompson with Boo Hill and became a fashion assistant. So I was only sort of like interning or in the cupboard, unpaid for six weeks and then I managed to get a job, so that was really, really lucky and then as Julie she said I just worked my way up from there. But yeah, I think everyone sort started in the cupboard just sorting clothes out, making teas, doing things…
Julie: and learning. Learning how to style clothes and learning. From the Fashion Editors that the tricks of the tricks of how to actually push it together and put the page together and things like that. So there was a lot of…
Paula: yeah and even the basics of like ironing because, I mean well you were taught that at the London College of Fashion but like how ironed properly and packed the suitcase. Yeah, yeah, things like that
Julie: taking in the bottom of shoes and all that sort of thing I don't really think it happens so much now.
Paula: I think everyone just wants to do the fun part of it. But it’s learning the little grassroots and working your way up.
(07:03) Nick: Brilliant, OK, awesome and I'm guessing obviously since then you become Editors, there's been a lot of changes even since then so just talk us through that about the changes that you've experienced just as you've moved from magazine and magazine.
(07:15) Paula: Well, when I first started an um, going on appointments, you'd have your little A-Z to go ‘round London, we didn't have mobile phones. I think we didn't even have email addresses then, the Internet was just coming forward. So I used to do my copy on a typewriter. We used to fax things to each other.
Julie: Paula before the fax, I remember when I was an intern we used to have to write a letter and post it to the PR. So, say we had a red jumper you just have to write this letter; “We have featured this red jumper…” and then that letter will get posted and we’d say “can we have it back by the end of the week?” so that's the major change. So yeah, the speed at which things got. And also there's obviously a huge change in the fact that magazine departments used to be a lot bigger and there were so many people working in the department that you’d have the ability to move up the rungs of the ladder slowly, so you could really learn as you went along, and just also the main difference is that the fact that now due to very many reasons we're no longer just working on one title
Paula: Yeah
Julie: we don't have the privileges, just sort of working for one brand, we are now all. I don't think there's anybody in our industry left now that's just working on one brand. You’re hubbed basically so you work across lots of different titles. That's been the most, when I say the most recent, in the last five years I think, I've been hubbed for about 8 years now so
Paula: and even for shooting now, if I was doing a trip I might shoot for fashion, but also do for beauty and do other things, I'll do covers. Whereas back in the day you would have different departments specializing in their own thing, so that's a big change
Julie: Yeah when I was at Woman’s Weekly there were four people just in the Knitting Department.
(09:13) Paula: Now we've got one, but she also does gardening.
Nick: Haha, because they mix together quite well!
Paula: Yeah and bless her because she hasn't even got a garden, and lives in a third floor flat and she's now the gardening and knitting expert.
(09:27) Nick: Yeah, wow so I guess how challenging is that? Because you're right, I mean you've got more access now to stuff with digital, but exactly, now you've got to handle a lot more…?
(09:36) Julie: Digital is. Everything changing has given you the speed of which to do things, and you do things quicker, and you can do things cheaper, but it just means you have to do a whole lot more really, so you need to be able to multitask and be very flexible in what you do.
(09:50) Nick: Yes, OK, yeah and that's interesting. And how have things change now more recently with the whole COVID situation?
(09:59) Paula: Working from home, and agile working. Relying on the internet and PRShots and everything a lot more and sitting at your desk on your own compiling pages and everything
(10:13) Julie: It was. It was obviously a huge shock when it happened and we had to think on our feet and I remember talking to you Paula right at the beginning thinking “what the bloody hell are we going to do?”, you know we've got to get magazines out still, because the one thing that didn't happen is we didn't stop printing. We carried on printing and we carried on getting out of magazine each week and we knew that the magazines in our market will be really important to help our readers know that we were still there and we were still giving them as much as we could, the same as what they were used to. It was a comfort, it was a release, it was entertainment for them. And that was definitely proved the case because the sales actually went up a bit, so we really were useful, I think in doing that. The main thing that changed for me straight away was that the Editor was adamant that we didn't actually push the reader of going out and buying things. So for the first time in my whole career, she said to me “I don't want you to do a page that's based on shopping. I don't want you to do a page that's based on telling the readers what they can buy”. And for three weeks we put out features on… well I had to go in front the camera. I did a silly little feature on how I wear my pyjamas three different ways which was…
Paula and Nick: Hahaha
(11:26) Julie: Luckily enough I live with my husband's a photographer and my daughter's fairly, you know, up for it. So I did a feature on her and what she could wear, and then me and my Deputy did a feature on sorting out your wardrobe and we used library shots for that and hand out shots and things. So we have three weeks of just doing completely different features that would never even dream of doing, and then slowly, when we were when we were confident that the websites were back up and running again, and we weren't going to be promoting something that we didn't want to happen like shopping in general, we slowly introduced the usual product led features back again. But that was a real shock because I was just literally like, I probably didn’t know what to do then; I've never done a page which would be more like a fashion feature as opposed to the fashion editing
Nick: Yeah, yeah totally.
(12:20) Paula: Yeah, so with us we still did a lot more sort of loungewear, and things to do at home and some of our shopping pages, which would just focus on fashion, we included more beauty and gardening products and things like that. We didn't really speak about the pandemic, we saw the magazine as a light relief and it's meant to be positive, and so we still knew what was going on. And as Julie said not promoting going shopping or anything, but just a different way of different habits
Julie: Everything my Editor wanted to put through it had to be bright, it had to be colourful, it had to be upbeat, but you know the more positive slogans you can get on a t-shirt on the page was good, you just wanted everything to be “Don't mention the C word!” you know that's going on…
Paula: The other C word
Nick: Yeah haha!
Julie: and also obviously with our restrictions that we have, on the fact that we do go to print 4 weeks before, we couldn't be as immediate as we wanted to be, so there were two weeks at the beginning of lockdown where obviously issues had already gone to print, so they were out and so we tried to be as reactive as we could, but we knew we couldn't be reactive on a day to day or even a week to week basis, so obviously our deadlines were brought,,, well, I was given the shorter deadlines, but it was still a couple of weeks so it wasn't possible to be really current
(13:41) Nick: OK yeah, well that's one of the questions actually that Katie Player from Matalan wanted to ask. I don't know whether you want to pose it yourself actually Katie? Because I did give you the option of me reading it and I think you said I could, but I was thinking actually might be nice if you ask it yourself?
(13:57) Katie Player from Matalan: How are you finding in general the virtual experience that brands are offering now? In terms of PRShots are you having to rely on PRShots a lot more because you're not able to go to see physical press days?
(14:14) Julie: yeah, I mean at the beginning of lockdown I remember thinking “I'm gonna be sat at this computer for the next”…, well, at the time I thought for the next three weeks, little did I know it would be 3 months, 4 months or whatever, and I just thought “this job is gonna change, you know, I'm not going to be outside, I'm not going out about not gonna be meeting my lovely PR Contacts. I'm just gonna be sitting here at the desk and it became definitely a Picture Editors role really. I was basically the Fashion Picture Editor, you know you would just be picture researching all day and downloading images, and putting them together, and writing them, and getting them sent through. so I knew at the beginning that PRShots was gonna be an essential part of that, and I remember emailing the guys and saying “come on, let's try and keep it going, let's get relevant stuff up”, and obviously at the beginning of lock down it was quite easy because everyone had just shot their Spring Summer, luckily, you know most people had got Spring Summer in there. Even there was some high Summer stuff that had already been shot. So for the first sort of three or four weeks it was fine 'cause we were relying on stuff that we, we already had from you and so it was all there. I mean, obviously the sudden realisation that half of the PR's were furloughed as well, so you didn't know, it took a bit of time to realise who's actually there and who's not, and to be honest it seemed like a lot of the PRs were furloughed because I presume brands thought that, that was an area that wasn't needed anymore, which wasn't the case for us - we needed you, but it was, you were talking to one person instead, it might not have been your person that you had the good relationship with, so it was almost like we had to start building a new relationship with people that we maybe hadn't, and there were a couple of brands like that. You know, I was now speaking to somebody perhaps that I didn't normally speak to, so that changed quite a bit. But mainly it was like, it was at that time though when we started to run out of images, and you can tell, and I was thinking “what the bloody hell are we gonna do when we've got to start those early Autumn stories? And I knew that the brands weren't shooting there, so that was the key point where I thought “we've got try and see what's on PRShots, get the most out of it and then try and change what we do slightly, and luckily my Editor was quite, you know, I explained all this to her and she said “well if we have to cut your page down to just a page, or if we have to use other elements and just do it more as a trend, like maybe some library shots of girls wearing red dresses…”, you know so there was that flexibility which was lucky, but it was and has been a panic towards the end of lock down rather than at the beginning I think. I found it trickier coming out of it.
(16:55) Paula: Yeah, yeah I was just saying that with Woman & Home we've got a longer lead time so at the moment we are working on our December issue. So I found something in the middle when we're working on September, which historically would be our new season “Autumn Winter - these are the new trends”, and so for that most of the PRs hadn't shot their Autumn Winter campaign yet, so it was a struggle to get just to cut out images, let alone model shots. So for that issue, I actually used influencers and just sort of copied their style, but it was like a timeless story, so we had like the trench coat, and the printed blouse. So it's just key pieces everyone needs in your wardrobe or investment pieces rather than a trend story that we would normally do. But yeah, it's the lead time because my deadlines hadn't changed, so we’re still working so far in advance, so it was just quite difficult, but it said you just have to be flexible and try and make it work and just use different ideas than what we normally do, because I still haven't started shooting and we're working on the December issue at the moment.
(18:00) Nick: OK, yeah, that's interesting because we notice as well that a lot more in situ images were being downloaded rather than the cut outs, and I think that's probably because obviously you couldn't get out there to take those images as well, but you're right. I mean, a lot of a lot of the PRs and the brands were on furlough, so it's kind of more difficult for them to even upload images as well, which is crazy.
(18:19) Julie: Yeah exactly! People were on furlough, they weren't allowed to work. It was a very tricky time trying to work out who was there and who wasn't there.
(19:16) Nick: Yeah, wow and Katie you got a couple more questions as well actually.
(19:22) Julie: Good girl Katie
Paula: Hahaha
Katie: I'm sorry, is it just me? Am I being really eager?
Nick: No, it's good! They’re good questions!
(19:06) Katie: So probably following on from that, I mean, I was on furlough for a bit, and when I came back we had to just got a load of new imagery and stuff, and so we were in a position, yeah. Well, I always kind of like whacking all on PR shots because I was like “God they'll need everything. But how do you like to use PRShots? Would you rather have a brand have a massive bank of images that you can just refer to all the time? Or do you like to see new images being uploaded like each week?
(19:25) Julie: Shall I start? I think the main thing I liked, and yeah we always love new images! New images as soon as they come in we love to see them because we get bored of you, looking at the same old stuff but having said that, as well as seeing new images, we also like to see a lot of images, so it's there's no harm in keeping that. I think the main thing with PRShots is keeping it current. You know, so that you get rid of, you do the housekeeping, not only are you putting up images, but equally you are taking off images - that's what helps us, because if we do searches and things, and we haven't got time to double check with you, we do rely on knowing that things that are up there are going to either be available now, or when we need them available, like in six week’s time, ideally. So the main thing is really just keeping things up there that that we can trust you to know that you know we when we need to use them, and they’ve not gone out of stock three years ago and that's the main thing. Also sectioning things as well makes our jobs a lot easier. Like I don't do childrenswear or menswear; my area is just women's wear so I like to go into a folder, I like to see that that folder says ‘Autumn Winter 20’, then within that folder, ‘Women's”, ‘Men's’, ‘Kids’, so that when I'm searching through the one folder of ‘Autumn Winter 20’ have to trawl through socks and knickers for a 3 year old because I don't want to see them, so slightly sectioning things and not just bunging everything on. I'd rather it be there, I don't mind searching for it. If that's the only way it can be there then carry on and put it in there, but if you've got a bit of time to do a little bit of sectioning, that does make our life a lot easier because it means that we can go straight to a folder that we want to look in, and even within that folder ‘Accessories’, ‘Tops’, but the more sectioned it is for me the better, because that just that just makes our life easier.
(21:31) Paula: And following on from that, I think labelling each image as well so I know not all of the time you have prices before-hand, but if you do get them to go back in and put the price on, and when it's dropping into store, or you know the launch date, so there could be something on as Julie said that is going to go in-store next week, so if it's got that date on, at least we know. There's a loads of images on there, that Julie said, have been there for too long and they like last season so we can't use, or you know it's not relevant for the issue we're working on. So it's really labelling and price points. And when it's going to be in-store is really important.
(22:10) Julie: And I really don't mind as well the odd email just to say “just to let you know we've gone the a new folder on PRShots, because that's always a good reminder as well to go on there and have another little look. Yeah, and tag them, because often, sometimes I'm in the mood and I really just need a red skirt so I will just type in “red skirt”, and then I would just trawl through and choose one. Other times I treat PRShots a bit like I'm going shopping, so I have my area that I like and I've got my High Street I call it, I'm going on my virtual shop, and I will go into the shop and I will say “got anything new? Oh God that put anything up since like March!” out of that shop, and I virtually go in and out of the shops if I've got more time because obviously I've got my set brands that I like to use in every feature, I'd like to get them every week.
(23:06) Nick: Yes, OK, that's that's good. How often do you use PRShots to get brands or to get images of brands that you're not necessarily looking for? Would you say there’s an opportunity, I guess, for other brands?
(23:23) Julie: The main opportunity for new brands would be to put more tags and keywords on, because sometimes I might put in “red skirt” and up comes a brand that isn’t on my radar, and maybe it might be that it's too expensive, or I might decide that “actually it's really nice red skirt so I'm going to find that new brand”, so I would say if you are a new brand going on, then yeah, just the more the more relevant keywords you can put on is probably where it'll pop up and draw my attention.
(23:53) Paula: Yeah, I tend to just use keywords. I wouldn't go into individual ones because I just don't have the time to do that. So if I’m doing velvet, I'll type it in and just go through everything that’s velvet then select it that way. Sometimes we could be asked to put a page together very last minute, like if they sold ad space and we need a single page to go in. I may be told this at 6:00 PM and then we're going to print the next morning, so I wouldn't have time to check with the PR if it's in stock, and if it's the price point, so if the information is on there, that's the image I will use in the mag - if it hasn't got all the info, I won't use it!
(24:29) Nick: That's some of the same advice we've been given by average Editors as well. If it's not got the price, it might not necessarily be so bad, as long as they know it's definitely in stock, but how often? Because some Editors will actually say “well it hasn't got price we can't do the ‘Below £100’ section for example. So how often would you choose something that’s got a price over the dress that you like, for example?
(24:42) Julie: Oh well, price is always very high up without reading on the priority. I would love to be able to put in lots of dresses and items that I like myself, but no, I would get the sack if I put in an item that was non High Street. We’ve all got a limit.
(25:16) Paula: Yeah, so Chat magazine, actually it's a £40 max limit, so that's what we always do. So we won't go over that price point, so if we're doing a feature and there's a lovely top, and we're not sure of the price; rather than sending that image to art and it gets laid out and then we have to change it, yeah, you just leave it out
(25:35) Julie: The two magazines I work for, the Editors she would let me use something that's expensive, and I will flag it up as being an investment piece. Actually in the last couple of months we've been doing a little bit more of that, like I've maybe used a pair of boots that are £120, whereas before I wouldn't even put that through. I've been putting it through and actually doing a little flash saying “Invest in these and you can wear them for three or four years”, and she's actually, for the first time going along that sort of feeling that “yeah, OK, we can do that”, but that would be a one off on the page. The page would have to have similar examples of that boot or that shoe from an affordable brand like Matalan, or Tesco so that it balanced it out. So yeah, knowing the price of things is, I've usually got a little bit more time, I never used to have, I never usually have to do anything that urgent, I've usually got a couple of weeks before I go to print, so I would always double check the prices and things, but if it's got the price there, it's just all the better really.
(26:39) Nick: An extra bonus, yeah, totally. Well, that's good. And a lot of people have said actually as well, they they love the system in the sense that they can actually see what Editors are searching for, so I think “Sweet-pea Green”
(26:49) Julie: Can they??? I didn’t know that!!
Nick: well you can’t see who searched, but they could see what the terms are that are being searched for
Paula and Julie: Oh I see, ok!
(26:59) Nick: We know what you’ve been looking for Julie hahahaha
(27:00) Julie: It’s like someone looking at my search engine
(27:03) Nick: No, it gives them a keyword search, so they can get an idea of what's being looked for. So obviously when Christmas comes up etc. I think Sweet Pea Green was a big colour that was being looked for. I'm guessing it was a Summer colour, but one of the other benefits of having something like this is actually, you can then sort of tell brands what it is that you're currently covering or looking to cover in the next few weeks so that hopefully they might have something prepared or even have images ready for you, rather than sort of wait for the keyword search to come out. So what are you currently working on at the moment?
(27:31) Paula: So I'm doing Christmas and with my lead times, because we do monthlies and weeklies, I sort of try to bring them together, so we're working on the same season at the same time. So for the weeklies, it's probably more in advance than Julie’s, so I am sort of like six weeks. So at the moment, anything Christmassy, so we'll be doing jewelled colours, gold, metallics, party dresses, figure fixing, that sort of thing, but also what's really helpful for us is the price points. But also, we can do “Let's shop” page, which can be stocking fillers for under £20, so that sort of thing. If things were like themed as well. That could really help us out and just make things a bit easier.
Nick: Yeah, OK, So what themed “Under £20”?
Paula: Yeah! So you can have a “gift” section and then yeah!
Nick: Brilliant, excellent and Julie is that something…?
(28:25) Julie: Yeah, I'm not quite on Christmas, I'm dragging my heels, I'm shooting covers for Christmas next week, so the word has cropped up. We’ve just finished our October and early November issues, when I say finished we’ve finish shooting the holding shots, so that we're now we've now got a couple of weeks to put those features through. So like for example, Carla's at home now doing a bright colour feature, so she we've shot the holding shots last week, so now we've got a couple of weeks to go and get our cut-out’s that we can add to it to make the page more interesting, and that will need to be gone through next week. So my ideas, meeting for Christmas is in two weeks time, so even though I'm saying I'm not working on it, it would be always, I'm always keen. What is always the best thing is if people don't quite realize this. I'm quite keen just to see I don't need to see a really gorgeous posh, well photographed image of a lovely dress on a girl before I know what you've got in the shops, for example. I'm quite happy for somebody to also send me, I'm not quite sure where PRShots coming on this, this is probably not necessarily on PRShots, but I'm quite happy just to see snapshots that are taken on a wall in the buyer's office of three fabulous dresses that they've booked, and are definitely booked to go, that I know that the images are going to be shot and I know that the images are going to be coming out on PRShots in maybe three or four or five weeks time, but I can then go to my Editor to say “silver is going to be a really key colour”, and because I know in the back of my head that Matalan will have an image of that. So I think you can rely on us, you can trust us to not tell the world that you're doing a fabulous silver dress. You know what our lead times are, so if you wanted to get us an image earlier than you, maybe would put it out to the dailies, or the influences or any Tom, Dick and Harry that drags it off, but you know you can trust us that it won't go out in the magazine until you tell us it can. So to have some kind of sneak previews, is basically what I’m saying
Nick: Yeah exactly, embargoed…
Julie: Maybe, they can go on PRShots. Maybe there's a way of the sneak previews only having the code on, like you used to, you know, not even be able to be seen. A folder of sneak previews of stuff that you target to your five key, six key…
Paula: Yeah or just a low-res image of it
Julie: Yeah, low res that we're not going to be able to use, that kind of thing, or an un-retouched image. It's just, the more knowledge we've got in as soon as we’re possibly able to have it, helps us because we’ve not only got to do the features but, weeks before that we've got to come up with the ideas. And then, especially now when we're not having the Christmas in July, and I don't think that'll ever happen again now really…
Nick: Oh, really?
Julie: I don't think. I don't know, I think things are changing the whole time, and this summer will, obviously, I think everyone will agree with me, this Summer will bring some changes that aren’t going to go away for various reasons, generally budget reasons. I think that it's people like us that need that need long lead information that are going to miss out because it has been really hard, this Winter, to come up with ideas about what's in the shops. I literally went to Oxford Street two weeks ago because I thought “I don't know what's in the shops, I've got no real idea”, so I literally, the week before my meeting, I walked up and down Oxford Street so that I could tell my boss what I'm going to be doing and that's not happened before. I need to be armed with the knowledge, and you've got time to then think about what you've seen, and then how you're going to present it on a fashion shoot and things. So if we can try and get any kind of sneak peeks out of the Press Officers, knowing that we're not going to use it until it's in the shops, I think that will be very helpful.
(32:26) Nick: Yeah, OK. That’s good information as well, because another question I was going to ask is how often, and how much of the content is actually produced by you, with all your ideas, and how much of it is kind of like, you’re informed that this is what you need to be covering for now? Does it all come from you or is it a mixture?
(32:47) Paula: What do you mean? Does it come from our Editors or…?
(33:35) Nick: Yeah, or anyone who also says “this is what we're going to be covering now”. Literally is everything from you in both cases?
(32:53) Paula and Julie: Yeah!
Paula: Yeah, unfortunately! No one else wants to chip in with ideas. So yeah, we normally do mood boards, or if we're planning, so I've actually got Woman & Home planned, and what we're going to do in the Jan issue as well, so we thought “right, Christmas is going to be…”, like this year, you know “whether you're going out with staying in, we've got Christmas covered, this is what you need!”. And then Jan’s going to be still more to festivity, but more about texture and like you know maybe a cashmere jogging suit that you can wear at home, but you can still wear like the hoodie outside. So that sort of thing. So we plan it all ourselves beforehand.
(33:33) Julie: Yeah, I mean gone are the days when, even now like with Spring Summer next year obviously, you know in the olden days we would get invited to London Fashion Week, but going right back to where you get your ideas from, obviously, in the olden days we would look at what was on the catwalk and you'd be buying that Vogue when they did their catwalk report, and so “they're saying it's red”, and so it all filters down. And so you have to get the ideas from somewhere basically, and there's nothing much new going on, and I can tell there's nothing much new going on, and that's because everyone is playing safe, and that’s because that’s the way it is, you know that nobody wants to break away and say “well the rest of the world is doing red, but Matalan are gonna do blue” because they'd be stupid to do it. So it's like trying to take the same story you've done every year and make it fresh and make it interesting and give it a spin. Like you know, we always do Christmas on a budget, you know how you can look good for under £100 We do that every time, it's trying to get a new way of doing it. But going back to your point about who's got control of things, one of the things that I did just think of is…, so that brands know that are on PRShots, I would say maybe 20% of the images we download don't get used, because we will download, like a whole load of red skirts, and probably out of the 10 red skirts we download, I would say maybe we would then use six or five. So obviously I'm presuming you realise that all the time and what gets used and what doesn't get used. But the less time we've got, obviously, and we've all got less time now, there's less of that because we don't have the luxury of doing an edit and then going back and thinking about what one we'd like to use, It's like “no that one will do!”
(33:29) Nick: Totally yeah, and I guess my question there was really about, ultimately the brands have got an opportunity to influence you as to what you cover as well so you can…
(35:39) Paula: Definitely!
Julie: But we need to know what's going in the shops, because obviously we can't make up stories about what's going in the shops unless we know what your ideas are. So even if you can't do a, like you were saying Katie about the virtual events, there have been a few and there have been some really good ones, and they've been much appreciated and I think PRs have got quite creative in what they can do online, but I would personally say it doesn't have to be a huge event. I'm just as happy getting, a one on one Teams meeting, sitting in a room with a couple of the buyers rather than a big like, Next did a big Christmas event, and it was lovely, it was great, and it was a big production. It doesn't have to be a big production, these are tricky times and we realise that, and all we really want to see is what is going to be in the shops…
Paula: Yeah
Julie: …and that's the bottom line, you know. I absolutely love all the bits that go with; the events and the freebies, and you know things arriving on your doorstep, it’s what's kept us going a little bit. You know; “OOOHHH A BOX!...
Paula and Nick: Hahaha
Julie: …it’s like being back at the office, but it isn't essential. You know you know that we need stuff to put on our pages, so what we really need is just a bit of upfront knowledge so that we can then create pages that we can then put your product into really
(37:04) Nick: Yeah, OK, so that's a really good question; seeing how the changes, the press days, which Katie mentioned as well, the online digital press days, how do you see things changing in the immediate and I guess, in the ongoing future, based on the current circumstance? Do you see this carrying on for quite awhile? Do you think this is going to be the way that people do things now?
(37:27) Julie: I would like to think that forever more, events would always have a virtual presence because I think the virtual events are more accessible. I mean there must be so many more people that aren't lucky like me, to be London Based and Paula. You know we pop in and out of the West End all the time. I've got my 2 girls now working from home, we don't live centrally, so therefore they juggling small children and it's much better for them. They don't have the time to come in and swan around and have dinner on a Friday night like we've always got time for. But you know, Carly and Lindsay don't, so they are sitting at home with young kids, and for them not to miss out on an event when they could just dial in an have an element of a virtual… I'd love to see in the future, events coming back as they were, and we can still do the lovely things that we've always done. But I'd also like to see, at that event, somebody in charge of capturing it virtually and recording it as well, because it's been nice to revisit events because often we go to an event and actually, by the time we get home the next day, I can't remember what…
Paula: what event we went to Hahah,
Julie: for whatever reason, and so that element of recording an event, and having it as a virtual space, maybe on PRShots, you know “This was our event, these are the pictures taken at the event…”, so you've got a reference back to what you saw if you’ve forgotten what you saw
(38:54) Paula: And also going on from what you were saying about your girls, because we're not all going to be based in the office anymore, so people are working from home, and if you are out of town, and it's not viable just to come in for one event. So yeah definitely, virtual is the way forward. But we want to see everyone in real life as well.
(39:12) Nick: Yeah, exactly, I think it's a mixture of it as well and if you can have three or four press days in a day which you would never be able to do normally. I guess that's an extra benefit for you, with the time time constraints you've got…
(39:21) Julie: We did manager to do three or four press events in a day
Paula: Yeah sometimes 10 or 12
Julie: Yeah, like when there was a whole day of things on the same day. But yeah in the in the future there will definitely be less people willing to come into central London, or wanting to, in the near future, definitely, so as far as Christmas launches are concerned, yeah, it's going to have to be virtual, isn't it? Because, it’s a novelty that we're this close today. I don't see the that it can't be done with social distancing to a certain extent. It's just that I suppose companies spend a lot of money on events, so if you want the maximum amount of people to come through the door. It might be that the events are smaller and more targeted to sort of, you know 10 people, and then we can come in two at a time, you know it's doable. It's just nice to have virtual presence going on forever, I think because it would give us, there's certain events I've missed because I can't be there. and that doesn't you know, it means that I can tap in virtually from wherever I am, and I think that's just a positive and a bonus going forward.
(40:31) Nick
Bonus! Totally! What are three things that PR's or brands do that that narc you and three things that that they do that you really like or are impressed by?
(40:48) Paula: OK, do we start on a positive?
Julie: We should end on a positive
Paula: Things that really annoy me…, only 3?? Haha. I don't like getting called on my mobile.
Julie: No I don't like that either
(40:50) Paula: Yeah email, it's great. And I don't know like really long, wordy emails, or something I'll have to download to see an image. I just like it all there, really easy and accessible, and in the first few lines, just explaining what the emails about, what they're promoting, price point etc and it's there. Not like you know, 3 pages of waffle.
Nick: OK, and when you say not downloading, so you mean you want the image actually within the body of the email?
Paula: …of the email yeah. Because sometimes people say “we’re gonna send you a WeTransfer of something…” but yeah that just takes time so I…
Julie: WeTransferring it in my house, I have to do it at night, when the girls aren’t on the Internet, so it is hard with us all working from home and I would say yeah, “why don't you just give me a few low-res images right now, and I will tell you what I want” really. Yeah, that's true. Yeah that's just the constraints of working from home I think as well at the moment, isn't it?
(41:58) Julie: I mean, you know it's the age old thing of how many emails we get a day of things that are just so totally irrelevant to us, which doesn't really, obviously, that doesn't include anybody that we know we want, but you know, in general, realizing I don't actually do menswear or kids, where I've told a lot of people, but constantly I'm getting that, and I don't mind every now and again, but when you say to people, “I don't do menswear” and then I'm getting menswear every day. You know, that's…
(42:23) Paula: I get food a lot actually
(42:25) Julie: Oh yeah, I get food and sex toys lately
Paula: (Laughing) they’ve been looking at your search history!
Nick: Hahahaha
Julie: …and before you know it, you’ve gone down a rabbit hole of them and you don’t know what you’re meant to be doing. I mean, you know, emails a day…
(42:42) Paula: I think we get about 300 plus emails a day
Julie: Of which like 40 are relevant, and 20 you'll reply to. File away some of them but, yeah we do get a lot. We’re a lot of lists of very irrelevant people so is breaking through those irrelevant, and the main way to do that, obviously, is to build a relationship. The minute I see an email coming in from somebody's name that I actually recognize I will ready, you know that's it, and I'll read those first before I read the other 50 emails that are from people that I don't know who they are. As always with PR, it's building the relationship and getting to know the person. And today more than ever during COVID, and especially when everyone is coming back from furlough like Jen, you know who's only recently back at M&Co. It's like rebuilding those relationships a bit really. We've actually not gone anywhere, so just let us know your back and let us know that things are up and running and you know we’re ready to go as always.
(43:47) Nick: So that's the three bad, so we've got rid of those. I’ll say that’s three between you, but rather than each I don’t want to pummel it in. So what are three things that PRs do that you really love? Or if you've got any stories of…
(44:02) Julie: We haven’t got any stories have we Paula?
Paula: No stories, not in the 30 years, 60 years between us…
Nick: laughing
Julie: Not a single story we have got no. Awww
(44:10) Julie: there's no getting away from the fact that we love being pampered
Paula: laughing, that’s what I was gonna say first
Julie: It’s hard isn’t it really
(44:22) Paula: I was going to say I love getting emails, like if they're promoting like say, a dress and it's going to go in store, and I get an email and then they sort of build it into a story, so it could be like “we've got loads of velvet coming in this week. Here’s what we've got’, or outfit building, or take this blazer, and it's got more of just like “here's a dress”, it's got something behind it, because they can sometimes give us light, little story ideas as well…
(44:49) Julie: Oh I’ve just thought of something I really hate
Paula: Oh ok
Julie: you’ll agree with me on it, and you'll know exactly what I mean. What I hate most, and this is really important, what I hate most about PRs is when you communicate to a PR that you're doing a certain story, ok, and you've come up with that story, and then within the day or two, a huge email will go out saying look at all these…. I know it's not something as basic as checks 'cause everyones doing that, but you just think to yourself “that's a bit of a coincidence isn’t it? I've just told you I’m doing that story. I don't want the rest of… I don't want Paul doing that story…”
Paula: Laughing, no I’ve already done it.
Julie: You know that…
Paula: Yeah I’ve had that before
Julie: When that happens, it's obvious, it’s like “I've just told you I’m doing that story…”
(45:33) Paula: or what we do like a catwalk page in Woman & Home, and it's a sort of catwalk to High Street Heroes. So I would send the PR the image and say like, “do you have anything similar?” And then like you said, two days later, you see that going around, like “Get the look from us”, and I haven't actually gone into print yet, but...
Julie: Yeah so there's a certain element of, although obviously we're great mates and everything, we do like to think that what we're doing is much better than anyone else is doing…
Paula: (laughing) yeah, and no one else has thought of it
Julie: No one else has thought about it… actually checks as being a really good idea. No, just that niggly little thing annoys me, but then on the positive side of things, just yeah, a nice, easy to read email which does come up, because there are often features I have put together, definitely I drag off those emails, I put them in a folder of things to remember, and then when I can show my Editor in the meeting, I do show her those screenshots and say “well this is what George in Asda are doing”, and she'll be in into that. She wants us to make sure we use those brands and things like that. And of course we've always got advertising in the back of our minds as well. We are, more and more as an editorial now, whereas in the olden days it we didn't get involved in advertising, now we've got the advertising team coming to us and saying “when are you using, like M&Co? Tell us when you're using M&Co, because we're going to go in and pitch them”. So we've got to keep the brands, our brands alive, and so we've got that in the back of our mind too. So if we know we can do a nice editorial piece, there might just be the chink of hope that the brand might be able to get some advertising out there as well. So that's always there.
Nick: Yeah, OK. So how many positives have we given? I can't member.
Paula: Err one? (laughs)
(47:21) Another positive is when we do get, because obviously with our lead times and everything, if we get told about launches or something in enough time, I think. Like even this morning I got emails about Halloween and our October issue’s already done
(47:41) Julie: To a certain extent, we've got a little bit of leeway on social, but actually we don't, as a brand, I do a lot. You know we do social personally ourselves as much as we can, but we have to remember that the brand first and foremost is the magazines. And even though we've got a big presence on Facebook, and there's another team on features that do that. And if I've got something that I will make sure I want to give the PR, like Katie sent me something yesterday. It won't make the magazine, it's too late. I was doing it, it would have been fantastic, that's the annoying thing when you get these stories and you think “oh I could have really put that on my September newsletter that I did in in July.
(48:22) Julie: So that's the other thing with me too, is remembering that Take a Break is both a weekly on a monthly, so the monthly is the element where I've got a news page, so it's a bit like Paula; I'm doing December now, so it's that element. But on the mag, the weekly I’ve got lesser time. But it's like wishing that we had, you know… I'm sure you get out to us as soon as you can, but, it's like getting the newsy stories. Or even just putting a spin of news on something for those news pages, like a new range outfit, and getting it to us as soon as possible, really.
(48:55) Nick
And what would you say is the best ever PR trick that you've ever experienced where you've just thought “You know what? That's brilliant! That brand is awesome, and you know, I love it!?”
Paula: (laughing at the silence following my question)
(49:09) Nick: “…or never!?”
Paula: Never! We’re still waiting! (joking)
(49:13) Julie: No, it's the opposite. There have been so many. We’ve had so many, we are really lucky…
Paula: and also we've got great relationships with, like some of the people who are listening now and stuff, so no, I think we are really like very lucky.
Julie: …and you know over the years it has changed it. You know we've had things, we’ve been flown here, there and everywhere, you know, we've had trips and I'm glad we were in it a few years ago, because things have changed and, it's not the important part we know that, but it is always lovely to meet people face to face, if that face to face involves a nice meal and a drink or a or a manicure it's just even more enjoyable, but to be honest, I'm quite happy with a chat on Teams! Yeah.
(50:00) Julie: The thing about the strength, I think, what I really want to get across is; we’re paid to do the job we do, by a publishing company. Paula and I are very lucky. Touch wood it can continue for at least another year or two, while my girls are at university. But we are paid by a publisher that trusts us to put product on the page that we feel is right for our readers, and we're not paid by the brand, and we really want to build on that. You know, we absolutely love getting all the things that the influencers get, we love that of course, we're only human, but we don't need that. So, you know, let's not forget that we just want to see a really good brand, really good images that, if we like them we are going to use, and the rest is just a very nice treat really. It's not essential for us, you know, we really… it used to be essential back in the day. It's not essential. We just need good product, good images, enough time that we can process them and do with them what we feel that we want to do with them. Trust us to do what we know would be good for our brands, because we know our brands well, and the rest is all just a lovely bonus. And yeah.
(51:26) Nick: That’s brilliant! Lastly, I guess is, what I'm astounded and what I absolutely love is that, within the Editor world, you all really know each other and you'll get on really so well. How difficult is it? I mean, obviously not at the moment because no one's meeting up anyway. But how difficult is it to maintain a good relationship, and keep secret what you're actually covering, especially after a couple of drinks?
Paula: Do you know what? I don't think it’s rocket science. Like you know, it's Christmas we're going to be covering the same thing; we're going to be doing little black dresses; we're going to do sequins, jewelled colours, gold, metallics, you know…
Julie: It didn’t take long when you walked in here before you told me who it was that did…
Paula: I know I'm trying to pretend, and like you know what, I don't mind sharing information. I think we all do the same job and you know, hopefully our readership buy all the magazines and I just want people to buy magazines. If it's not mine, it's yours, so I'm not hiding anything that I'm doing…
Julie: We all know we're all using the same images, but we all know we're going to put a different spin on it. So that's another thing; the more variety you can give us the better, because if you're just going to do a press pack with like 3 images in, then I know that those three images are going to be used by everyone, and so there's no kind of chance that I've got an image that nobody else will. If you do a press pack with like 20 images, then I think there's a chance that my image might not also appear elsewhere. You know, we go for different things, so there's a chance it might not. And it’s also using all the images that the brand have got.
(53:04) Julie: We don't just want to see beautiful press pack shots anymore; we actually like that sort of element with real people and influencers. We're trying to get that on our pages now, because that's the way things are going. So I'm quite happy to see marketing shots, shots done, point of sale shots really as well, you know that are done for store. We just need variety and then we know we can use more of them, because I don't use the same image on That’s Life to Take a Break; I make sure the girls use different images. If Lindsey on That’s Life has used one image I won't let Carla use it, because the readers buy the same magazines and it's my job to keep them different. I'm sure Paula feels the same, so more variety, just different things. The same outfit maybe shot on a couple of different models or something.
(53:53) Paula: Also with the models, not always so young. I think especially with our readership it's like 35+ for Chat, but then the others are slightly older. So yeah, I think like models reflecting that sort of age group. Not saying that they all have to be 40+ models, but not someone who looks like 12 years old.
Julie: Again variety, you know, if you've got the chance to use two models then make sure they're just covering different bases
Nick: Yes, OK yeah, because I guess you’re right, there are fundamental differences between each of the publications that you're putting out. So what are the demographics of all of your magazines
(54:30) Paula: So, Feel Good You and Chat magazines are the younger ones and then, so when I say younger I mean 35+, and then the others are say 40+. And then we’ve got Woman’s Weekly which is probably 50+
Nick: OK, and what about you Julie?
(54:45) Julie: Well, it's the same with us, really. I mean, Take a Break is really anything from 25+, you know it's got so many readers really, that we do like to capture quite a lot, but we aim our fashion at the sort of 40+ woman, but it's a wider scope. That's Life is actually younger reader, but she's less affluent, so it's a different kind. She's younger. Definitely interested more in the sort of celebrity, real life, real people kind of area of her life, but has less money to spend. The Take a Break reader has actually got more money to spend because she's slightly older. That's pitching between the two and a lot of people by both magazines, so that's why we try and keep it different…
Nick: Yeah, totally well, my Mum bought Take a Break so she…
Paula (suggestive coughing)
Nick: (laughing) as well as Woman’s Own obviously yeah, I mean altogether.
Julie: It’s a bit like Woman and Woman’s Own, they all come as a package
Paula: So yes, we just want to make sure they are different.
(55:55) Nick: Yeah, totally and is there anything before, because this time is just flown? And I don't know, in fact whether I've let Katie ask all her questions
(56:47) Paula: Has Katie got more questions…?
(56:48) Nick: I know that there were a number of them. I think a lot of them were actually answered. I don't know whether there was anything that was unanswered within your question maybe? I think they're all pretty much covered.
Katie: Yeah, I think they were all answered. My other ones were just about gift guides, but I think they were all answered
Nick: OK
(56:17) Julie: Gift guides is the one thing that is like; we know we've got to do it but God is like, you know when they start coming through in September, it's a bit like the hardest thing to deal with. it's just that they’re the same every year, aren't they? In fact, I think the Editors are going off them a little bit, because how many times can you do ‘Gifts for him’, ‘Gifts for her’?
Paula: I don't know.
(56:35) Julie: It’s hard, gift guides. We do it and we will do it. But it will be when we go into PRShots, and you type in “Christmas” and hope that it all comes up because it's tricky. It's tricky to do because it fills me with dread because you do then get PR's coming out of the woodwork that want you to feature something so obscure and you just think “I just want to know what's gonna be in Marks&Spencers. Do you know what I mean? It’s where our readers will go shopping and it's that kind of thing, really. I don't relish doing them, but that's…
Paula: Delegate!
(57:09) Nick: Yes, OK, well that's all good. Is there any way that the brands can put a theme on it that might make it more interesting? Or is it that it’s just got to be pretty much standard?
Julie: Yeah, I think this year more than ever, it will just be price I think…
Paula: Yeah, because I've done my main gift guide for Woman & Home but for the weeklies, we're doing price points, and then themes, so we're doing a gold one, we’re doing dual colours. So yeah. And for everyone rather than sectioning them off
(57:36) Julie: Yeah I don't always like doing family ones because it's just a bit,
Paula: yeah because not everyone has…
Julie: Grandma and Mother has the same gift. I think people do like to know that they can get a few things under £20. I think when people are shopping for Christmas they do have a budget in their head, and if they know they can get something actually fantastic for under £30 pounds, I think a budget thing is more important than for who it is because everyone across all sections are in for that
Nick: And just to end it I guess. Is there anything at the moment that you are looking for, like an image or something that the brands can help you with?
Julie: Now you know I need for next Thursday a red sequined dress. The Editor has asked for the Christmas cover to be in a red sequined dress. So if anyone’s got one, coming up…
Paula: I think I might have one at home… (laughs)
Julie: in your cupboard? At home?
Paula: yes, in my personal wardrobe
Julie: To be honest with the covers, I’ll hire one in if I need one. But that's what’s annoying me; I'm going out to Oxford Street now to do my returns from my shoot last week, and I’m gonna be scouring for a red sequined… you’d think it’d be easy wouldn’t you!? I can get plum, and I can get pink, but she wants bright red, and for some reason I can’t find one.
Nick: Ok, well hopefully you’ll find one on Oxford Street
Julie: What are you looking for Paula?
Paula: For the weeklies we’re doing all the Christmas so it’s just model shots. So Christmas partywear, and price points as well, so lots of model shots please!
Nick: Ok, any particular age range?
Paula: It’s more price points of the clothes. So for Lux for Less it’s £30 and under, for Chat it’ll be £40 and under. So little black dresses, trousers and a fancy top, skirts and things. Loads of Christmas images please
Nick: Excellent, Ok, well hopefully we’ll get some help from that as well, but thank you! An absolute thanks to both of you – you’re both absolute Gods within the Editor world
Julie: Goddesses
Nick: Goddesses of course, so I really want to thank you and hopefully that’s really useful to everybody else as well, but thank you so much!